December 29, 2004
We are the Neo-N...-lovers
i voted for bush.
i assume we disagree on iraq. does this make you hate me ??? when hating starts, two things stop, listening & thinking.
i don't know anyone here in the us that wants to take over the world. we would like a few others to stop flying planes into our buildings, however.
we gave back germany, japan, afganistan, etc... and iraq is becoming more like canada every day...(history repeating itself??) so much for world domination...
when i visited the world trade center after 9/11 it clearified my thinking. you might consider a visit to the usa... to listen and to think.... for yourself
ps-not good to judge 52% of your neighbors by a few nutjob blogs
(can i still not get mashed potatoes instead of frys at kfc up there ??)
Thomas' comment: I am glad you say "the violence ... will rebound on itself," rather than "the violence ... will rebound on us." To my way of thinking, this distinction (if a conscius one) differentiates you from the usual run of Americans, who seem to see an "us" and a "them." It seems to me that you know there is only an "us," which includes the entire human race. The more violence we create in this world, the more violence we'll be faced with.
Daniel's comment: I wish it were only a game, my friend. It is definitely not a game, though. Real people, and not virtual ones, are getting killed in their tens of thousands. The truckloads of bodies of women and children taken to mass graves in Iraq will leave lasting memories of American savagery that will make this an even more violent world.
S.A.'s comment: We do indeed disagree on Bush, but it doesn't mean I hate you. What it means is that Bush and his gang hate both you and me, but, and I hope you won't be offended by my saying so, I think they also despise you for having been taken in by their lies. But, speaking from the point of view of practicality, that gang does not represent the interests of either of us. You may not want to take over the world, but the people you have voted into office do want to take over the world. Take a look at Cheney and his gang's "Project for an American Century." As to planes flying into buildings, are you perhaps one of those people who still believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11, contrary to all the evidence and Bush's own admission? If you are, please just ignore the rest of this. As thousands of others have said, when a crime is committed, you use the resources of the criminal justice system to catch, try, and punish the criminals. Instead, Bush decided to exploit 9/11 to pursue the Afghan oil pipeline project and Iraqi oil. As a result, the small terrorist gang that planned 9/11, which could have been eliminated relatively easily if wiser heads had prevailed, is now a permanent and substantial part of the world's landscape, and, as far as I can see, cannot be elimintaed anymore.
About getting planes into buildings, it only happened once, and sometimes I think it's strange that things like these haven't happened more often in the US with such a great past when it comes to poking its nose into where the country shouldn't.
Look at what happened to Spain (Madrid, March 11th) just because of having a pro-US president supporting Bush's moves. And it was only a move we shouldn't have done. We paid its price... at a high cost.
I voted for Bush, I support our soldiers, but I also love my Muslim friends and want the war to end quickly. If the result of Iraqis being free could be met with no more death, then I couldn't be happier. Let's not lose sight of the true desires of most people.
I hate the Iraq war.
So many political games that everyone fails to see.
I really wish that someone would come over to troops to America and bomb the hell out of it. Maybe then people could actually complain.
I believe you are correct in your suspicions of the American Right. They certainly prosecuted this "war" on lies, exaggerations and false claims. More than likely they want to be able to control and stabilize world oil markets.
Having said this, the Right has not shown any interest in "taking over the world." Your characterization of rampant American racism has some legitimacy in respect to the fringes, but it is interesting that you are not an even-handed critic. Nowhere else in the world is as closed-minded, intolerant, sexist, racist and genocidal as the Middle East. Why is it you only criticize America's right wing FRINGE when the mainstream in the Middle East endorses the same kind of hatred(and much worse!). Let's compare: In America, by law, Muslims and people of all religions and races are free to worship as they choose-or not. What would happen to people trying to practice Christianity, Judaism or atheism in the much of the Middle East? What about criticism of Islam? Yes, America has a shameful past of slavery, but slavery persists in the Middle East today. And the genocide in the Sudan? It has been conducted by Islamic Fundamentalists. Criticizing only the American Right is dishonest. There are a lot of us- at least 47%- who do criticize the Right in America, but their wrongs pale by comparison to the legislated fascism of the Middle East.
However wrong America was to invade Iraq, Sadaam was a genocidal thug. It only seems to bother the body politic of the Middle East when their people die at the hands of "infidels."
America is no doubt responsible for the deaths of many innocents in the Iraq invasion and occupation and a large percentage of Americans are protesting and trying to bring a peaceful end to it all. Meanwhile fascists in Iraq are shooting Iraqi election workers in broad daylight.
America is far from alone in its wrongs and even the majority of those who support the right, do so for what they believe to be noble causes (e.g. democracy, freedom, etc.). Are America's enemies even pretending to pursue high causes? Coming from the left, I am acutely aware of how politically incorrect it is to criticize any political, geographical or religious entities other than those in America. You are right: there is just one "us" in the world- all peoples. Pursuing only America's wrongs does nothing to promote this ideal.
I think that's why he focuses on the U.S., it's the whole point of the story. He's fed up with the U.S. for this and I understand him.
In your initial post you stated "The right wants as many Iraqis (or Moslems in general) to be killed as possible, and they don't care how or why. All they ask is that no-one talk about it." This is simply not supported by any evidence. And there are many of us who risk the "invective" for doing so. Name an instance of an "insurgent" prosecuted as a war criminal. American war criminals would Middle Eastern heroes in many quarters. You concede that there is evil in all countries as though this truth makes all countries equal in this respect, but somehow America is more evil. This is a lie of omission. And you say that "those countries" don't invade others? Once again, this is not even close to true. Check your history, recent and distant: "those countries" do a lot of invading.
ZombiekE rightly chides America for claiming greatness and failing this standard, but it is not America who pursues conflicts "in the name of God." America is a nation "of the people, by the people," and as such is flawed. What is the excuse for the brutal regimes who claim to act in the name of God?
The problem is that neither the right nor apologists for Middle Eastern tyranny can face the whole truth: America is a better model for people to freely pursue their lives, but that does not give it the right to impose its will on others.
And Al S.e., I would not call critics of America enemies of America. I do believe that your exclusive, specific criticism of America reveals a one-sidedness. If you believe that Iyad Al and Sadaam are equivalent, other than Sadaam's (heroic?) resistance to America, then you ignore Sadaam's hundreds of thousands of victims. Perhaps these crimes don't warrant a mention from you as they were not perpetrated by America.
The "invective" I receive is not exclusively from the right. In general, it comes from people who are very partisan. You can use quotation marks around my claim to be from the left all you want, but true-thinking lefties are opposed to both the American occupation of Iraq AND the kind of tyranny people like you defend by ommision.
How can you call conservatism "hideous?" I can respect the fact that you disagree, but you don't need to blast it with a hateful remark. As far as I can tell, everything you know comes from heresay. Name one conservative icon who wants to eradicate 1.2 billion Moslems.
I would like to stage the argument that the conservatives in the US are simply trying to make the world more peaceful and more civilized. Yeah, a lot of people have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan as a by product of this goal, but I don't think that makes it wrong. There are violent and hateful people everywhere, it's unfortunate that that is what the world media focuses on.
I am not trying to condem what you are doing. I truly respect your point of view, I am just trying to shed light on this subject from another angle.
You see, we went into this war with our eyes and ears closed to the reality of the real reason behind it all. The shame in all this is that the American people still think that us being there is okay. Do you not for one second ever wonder why we are still there? Does that question not cross your minds, EVER? First we invaded because Iraq had WMDs. When that wasn't found, the next excuse was "Iraq was planning to acquire resources to build WMDs". Then, when that wasn't proven, it's now "the people of Iraq did not like their leader so it is up to us to remove him and let them vote for someone they like." Assuming that this excuse is accepted, who the h*ll are we to go into another man's country, take it over and overthrow their government? As much as I despise this so called president of the US, I don't want anyone coming into our country and overthrowing our government and removing our president because they have NO RIGHT to do this and neither do we.
It is interesting that you mentioned that Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan "highjacked" the term "conservative." There is no doubt in my mind that if I had been an adult during the time of Kennedy or Roosevelt I would have been a Democrat. Those guys had constructive values and were leaders. That is what is important to me. See, Democrat, Republican, Conservative, and Liberal are just sounds -- they mean nothing, they are just logical containers we put certain like-minded people into, the names themselves mean nothing. A conservative today would have been considered a liberal 40 years ago and vise-versa (at least in the USA).
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